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 Kaye Edwards

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Hello Friends,

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 Kaye Edwards

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This chat is to focus on chidren's ministry, particularly - How to make adult worship more friendly for them. However, I am open to "chatting" about whatever as long as it has to do with children's ministry.

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 Kaye Edwards

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It looks as though there are a number of us online now. Where would you like to begin?

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 Suzi 

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Is anyone doing anything innovative with children in worship? (I'm on hold on the phone, so if I drop out for a minute I'll be back.)

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 Kaye Edwards

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Suzi, I have run across a number of churches doing some pretty cool things. I have been putting together a resource with these ideas. I will be happy to send the "product" that I have so far developed if you will send me your E-mail address.

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 Janalie Robeson 

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This isn't particularly innovative, but our youth, junior high & up, often serve as lay leaders during worship. This is good experience for them, too!

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 ejmwills 

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Are we all just waiting for answers?

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 Kaye Edwards

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A church in Kansas is telling the stories from Young Children and Worship (Children Worship & Wonder) and then the children, of all ages, go out for their response time. They return to the sanctuary in time for offering and communion and remain the rest of the service.

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 Diana 

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I'd settle for waiting for the question. ;) :D lol

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 Kaye Edwards

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If we want to include children in adult worship then we must let them serve in leadership positions. Serving as lay leaders is great. Even young children can read scripture, offer prayers in worship.

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 Diana 

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OK--I'll start.

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 Suzi 

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That's a cool way to use CW & W. We are in the process of instituting that here. We do a children's message now and have special worship bags for them to use during worship. I have asked one of the children to assist serving communion with his mom. But I'd love to get the "product" sgoldt@csidechristian.org. Or you can bring it with you when you come to do CW&W training on 2/2 & 3 Kaye.

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 KB 

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Good morning form Ohio....we use worship teams in our services. We have four so four times a year we have an extra Sunday in a month and our youth & college students do the entire service...very exciting

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 Diana 

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One thing new one congregation has added

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 Laurel 

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The children in families who lead our Advent candle lighting read better than many adults.

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 Diana 

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is to have the children present at the start of worship,

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 Diana 

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and then bring their offering forward.

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 Laurel 

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I would also like to have the product Kaye

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 Diana 

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The nicest thing is that the offering prayer is led by one of our older youth.

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 Kaye Edwards

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How about if I get it posted online? It could be something that I cound continue to add to as YOU ALL send me ideas.

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 Laurel 

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Since we have LOGOS the children and youth are involved in someway in worship leadership every Sunday during the LOGOS semester and thenduring the rest of the year they play solos on piano or other instruments during offertory or serve as lay leaders, junior deacons, acolytes

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 Janalie Robeson 

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We have a Youth Sunday, too, and it is a highlight of the year. Also, we have a PAWS (Praise And Worship Singers) which is a contemporary music choir with children and adults. It's FUN!

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 Amy Taylor 

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I like that idea. How else might we include children each week?

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 ejmwills 

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Our children serve as deacons, but I haven't seen them pray in front of the congregation, except on Youth Sunday.

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 KB 

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how often does this group sing...is it every Sunday?

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 Laurel 

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what ages do most churches have CWW? By the way Kaye I am teaching a intor to CWW at OKlahoma Leadership Training School on the 27 and could use some flyers and other materails that might be helpful.

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 Janalie Robeson 

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At least once a month, sometimes oftener. We rehearse before the chancel choir almost every week.

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 Kaye Edwards

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I recently bought a book from Discipleship Resources of the Methodist Church. I haven't yet read it but have flipped through and it looks pretty good. The writer has interviewed young children, asking them about different worship practices. I am impressed that he went to the children instead of assuming that he knew what was needed. The book is [i]Always in Rehearsal: The Practice of Worship and the Presence of Children by James H. Ritchie, Jr.

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 KB 

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we are working toward that goal...seems like a great way to incorporate our kids

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 fester 

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so does anyone know if this is starting in 45 min or an hour and 45 i am in mountain time and was not sure

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 Kaye Edwards

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Sorry, I am adding too much chat here. In my opinion, CW&W is for children ages 3 until 1st or 2nd grades.

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 KB 

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Kaye....when you post this online...where can we access it? I have to get to another meeting and would really love more information on this topic

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 Paul Pryor 

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Has anyone had anything to say?

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 Amy Taylor 

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It's 11:16 in Indy now, so I think this is it!

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 Janalie Robeson 

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Question: We will be planning a Holy Humor Sunday again this year (the Sunday after Easter) and our youth are a part of the service. Does anyone know a good source of humorous skits for kids & youth?

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 fester 

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well alright then good thing i signed on have we talked about anything yet

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 Amy Taylor 

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Looking for ideas about how to include children and youth in worship...

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 Laurel 

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Spontaneous Melodramas are good

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 Kaye Edwards

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I will post on the DHM Children's web site and get out a notice to the docchildren's yahoo group when it is posted.

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 Laurel 

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Another good book is Including Children in Worship, A Planning Guide for the Congregation by Elizabeth J. Sandall published by Augsburg, 1991

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 fester 

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that is why i am here right now we do not do a lot, i have just restructured our childrens church to try and teach the elements of worship so they are not as foreign when the children enter back into worship but we are at a loss when it comes to actually getting them involved. we have talked about having a more family worhsip, but wonder abotu music, communion etc

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 KB 

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Thabks so much...all of you have a graet day

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 Jessie 

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Laurel, is the book you mentioned, Children in Worship, available throught Chalice Press?

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 Kaye Edwards

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This is a touchy point with me but I really like to make a firm distinction between youth and children's ministry. Youth Sundays and youth involvement always make worship more meaningful to children but they do not always involve children. Children's needs and gifts can get lost when children's ministry is combined with youth.

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 Laurel 

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don't know, I got it at Cokesbury

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 mission 7 ministry 

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It is an excellent idea to have junior church for the children - to what age do they attend jr. church before they enter the adult service?

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 Laurel 

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It is called INCLUDING chChildren in Worship

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 fester 

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when i got to this church they were going until the 5th grade we just cut it off at second due to the fact that they normally enter pastors class in the 3-5th grades and wanted the children to experience worship, and the full community of the church before they entered that class. Also our youth groups start in ttthird grade so that seemed like a good time

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 Jessie 

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We have a great children's music director and once a month the children perform special music for the congregation. We feel this helps them receive good encouragement for their talents as well as make them feel a part of our morning worship.

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 fester 

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i think it is more important though that jr worhsip, childrens church, whatever you call it has real direction if you are doing it. it cant just be babysitting which is what it was when i got to my current church

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 Diana 

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While we provide a class for children during worship (we have also done "children's church"), we encourage those families who wish to worship together by providing children's packets at the rear of the sanctuary. Two comfy rocking chairs assure parents with babies that they, too, are welcome in worship.

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 mission 7 ministry 

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presently we are without a pastor - he had the children in the adult worship service during the opening section, then gave them a message - they the went down to a more sunday school type setting

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 Kaye Edwards

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I think it is an Augsburg book. I hope it is still in print. It is a great book. You should be able to find a copy on Amazon. Parenting in the Pew is also helpful, though I don't agree with all of the writer's ideas. John Hinant's book, Children at the Lord's Supper is a must for every disciples interested in children. Deciding whether or not children who have not been baptised can "come to the table" is a hot topic in many of our churches. You can order the book from DHM. It is around $12.00.

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 Diana 

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I know many churches incorporate children's choirs, drama or puppet groups into the worship setting.

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 fester 

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that is what we do currently they leave rigth before sermon, communion, pastoral prayer, and offereing. then in their own worship they get all of that as well

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 Amy Taylor 

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We are looking at adding a second service and want to make it family friendly, too, but I am just beginning to envision how that might look. Less formal, obviously, and more flexible. Honestly, as a parent and volunteer, I dream of a service that includes all but the littlest tykes (and definitely my 8-year-olds). Is that possible? Desirable?

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 Jessie 

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I would be interested in hearing how other churches involve children and youth in the morning worship service. Any ideas?

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 Laurel 

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Our LOGOS kids 1-3 do bulletin cover art, scripture skits, puppets and our 4-6 do handbells ( Ring and Sing with the colored bells) puppets, bake bread for communion, signing scripture,

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 fester 

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i guess our question is, Does anyone have ideas concerning choices for music, order or worhsip, ways to change the way we present our sermons, and how to incorporate or teach about communion if a church were to choose to ditch the idea that children should be sent to their own worhsip and instead keep them with the rest of the body

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 Diana 

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Personally, I feel there is no better way to raise future Christians than to incorporate them into the worship services, complete with responsibilities like lighting candles, singing, helping to pass offering plates, doing readings, etc.

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 Jessie 

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I like the idea on bulletin cover art. I will mention this to our youth leaders.

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 Amy Taylor 

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There you go! Keep them busy and integrated into the service. Seems like everyone would benefit.

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 fester 

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but is there a better way, for instance when we gather in church to worhsip and are told open your hymnal to number whatever adn sing it leave out all of our children who cant read. is there a better way to incorporate them into the community moments of the service

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 Diana 

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It worked for me...

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 Laurel 

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banner kits from Contemporary Drama Service, writing litanies, prayer bracelets last year for Lent when we started 10000 Praying Disciples

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 Laurel 

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we made bracelets for the all worshippers!

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 Diana 

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If your children are hearing the songs often enough, they don't have to know how to read--they'll learn the choruses and verses by hearing them.

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 angie 

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Hi Kaye, how is everything going?

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 fester 

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should we spend more time explaining things like communion and offering so that a child can understaind, shoud we start haveing more interactive sermons so that a child feels included or do we just say that eventually they will understand and participate

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 Kaye Edwards

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Laurel, These are great ideas. I will add the signing scripture and bread baking to my "in progress product" before I get it posted. I think I already have the other ideas included. One of the things I want to be careful about is that we don't just invite children into the sactuary to show-off for adults. I see this happen a lot during the children's sermon.

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 fester 

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i dont think that repetition is enough though then we are not offering worhsip that will include children we are just allowing them into ours

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 Diana 

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I'll bet that if certain worship elements are "explained" during children's moments, you'll find a lot of adults who will later admit that they learned a thing or two...

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 Kaye Edwards

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Tell us more about the bracelets . . .

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 Laurel 

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I am so glad we don't do Children's sermon anymore. I LOVE CWW

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 angie 

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Looks like Kaye is in the "Children" chat room ...

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Hi Kaye

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 Amy Taylor 

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I think there are things we could do much better to make children feel welcome. These touch all aspects of worship. So we're talking about change, which is always challenging.

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 Diana 

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Interactive sermons are good for all ages.

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 Kaye Edwards

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There is a downloadable brochure on children's sermons on the DHM Children's web page that may be helpful to those of you doing children's sermons.

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 Jessie 

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We still do children's time during the worship - but I am interested in knowing what CWW is

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 fester 

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should we move to the childrens group is that waht we were being told

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 mission 7 ministry 

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my e-mail said general chat room

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 Laurel 

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we made jute bracelets with four beads and little laminated card that said one bead was for our congregation, one for region one or "Indianapolis" one for the church universal. The kids love running the lamintaor and older ones cutting the cards

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 angie 

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I have to check out now, but wanted to let folks know that a transcript of today's chat will be available online within a few days. Thanks for being here!

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 Laurel 

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And of course making the bracelts, choosing beads and tieing knots, we had quite a variety. I gave one to Sharon Watkins at Quad.

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 Amy Taylor 

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With a commitment to adding a second service, I feel the time is here for family friendly worship. But I need resources, ideas, and courage! We'll just have to explore and learn as we go, I guess.

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 Kaye Edwards

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Children Worship & Wonder is a worship program for children ages 3 - 1st or 2nd grade. You can read about it at http://www.homelandministries.org/FamilyandChildren/CWW.htm or E-mail or call me, Kaye Edwards, 434.832.1119.

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 fester 

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i hope that it is not that hopeless are there resources from other denominations i know we are not the first to think about it

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 Diana 

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How 'bout we ask the kids what they'd like to see changed?

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 Jessie 

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Our pastor does a great children's time. Currently he is explaining the various Christian symbols around the sanctuary - ie the Alpha/Omega symbols - communion table and elements - various banners and their meanings, etc. I the past he has had a special shoebox that he gives to a different child each Sunday with instructions to bring back something of value to them in the box the next Sunday. He then does a short talk on each item. Has really been effective the way he does it.

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 Diana 

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I like those ideas.

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 mission 7 ministry 

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how long does the average service last in your churches?

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 fester 

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about an hour here

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 Diana 

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1/2 hour-40 mins. for the early; 1 hour for the "main"

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 Jessie 

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We try to keep ours at about an hour but occasionally we run as much as 15 minutes over. We are never under an hour.

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 Amy Taylor 

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I see my kids express interest when the music is livelier. Also, when adults speakers are animated and personable. We often run well over an hour-- not good for kids.

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 Diana 

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I'll bet it's those announcements that run most of us over!

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 Laurel 

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The children's sermon can be done well, one thing I always did was make sure the children sat on the floor facing me not on the steps facing the congregation

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 mission 7 ministry 

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how much time is devoted to the childrens portion?

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 Jessie 

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Yes, the announcements sometimes get long. Our children's time usually lasts about 5 minutes.

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 fester 

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that is part of the problem i think for most of us the only time devoted to children is the childrens moment

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 Laurel 

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Ours is 1 hour 10 minutes. The children leave for CWW after the Gloria Patri

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 fester 

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if we are going to have children in worhsip we need to think of them in every part of our service

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 Amy Taylor 

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Kaye pointed out to me that the kids aren't there to entertain the adults. It can be disrespectful to them, though fun for us!

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 Diana 

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Five minutes for us, too. BUT we do have some little tykes who actually sing solos!

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 fester 

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not just one or two parts

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 Amy Taylor 

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I agree that we need to rethink everything. But how to spearhead those conversations?

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 Kaye Edwards

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Jessie, There are a lot of ideas out there. The biggest challenge (I think) is getting adults to let children be themselves during the service . . . not rip and run but be kids who ask questions and need to move.

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 Laurel 

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The Including Children in Worship book I mentioned is really great for that.

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 fester 

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Laurel i dont think i was here for that can you mention it again

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 Diana 

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I think most congrgations compromise in using the kids. We figure an hour is too long to hold their attention, so we give them a portion of the service and then send them out. I think that by giving them responsibilities within the service AND by allowing for more movement, the children would be less inclined to fidgeting and boredom.

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i guess i would like to see a structured chilrens church setting - giving their parents the opportunity to assist in that setting and then introduce them into the adult setting as they see them ready for it.

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 Amy Taylor 

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Is this why people move away from the pews for contemporary worship?

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 Laurel 

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Inlcuding Children in Worship a Planning Guide for the congregation by Sandell from Augsburg, 1991 get it at Cokesbury a few years ago.

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 fester 

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i am a fan of the structured children chuch. that is what we have started in which the children experience everthing they miss when they leave including, message, scripture, community meal, prayer, and offering.

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 Amy Taylor 

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Really I see both sides. We have a great CWW program but my kids are nearing the end. I like different kinds of worship and would like to be with my kids on Sundays.

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 Diana 

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Possibly. Also, pews reek of "formality" something contemporary services try to avoid.

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 Jessie 

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Althoug inclucing children is important, and I realize they are not there for our entertainment, I think it is also important to realize we are not there for their entertianment. They can be taught by parents and youth leaders how to behave in church, especially those times that do not seem specifically children oriented - such as the morning prayer, and perhaps even the sermon.

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 fester 

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we are talkign about making the last week of the month more of a family worhsip where we dont have childrens church and encourage all children to be in worhsip but dont want to just bring them in we want the service to be more inclusive.

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 Diana 

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I think that's a good introductory step.

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 Kaye Edwards

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This is a continuation of a conversation that I have been having with people all across our denomination, including Sharon Watkins. If you come to General Assembly in Fort Worth this July I think you will see a difference in the inclusion of children. I have tried for years to get the GA planning committee to consider how children could be involved in assembly worship beyond a token appearance. This year, with Patti Case in charge of planning, I think it might happen!

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 mission 7 ministry 

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again who am i to say - i think the children should go straight to jr. church from SS and experience the same structure as the adults - then the adult service would be familar to them

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 Amy Taylor 

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Can we keep sharing ideas and successes as we all try new things?